I think Lorimer, much like Austin says is a nice guy. While he takes an interest in the women and gains an understanding of their society. Despite this, he still can’t stop Bud from sexually assaulting Judy or agreeing with Dave that the women need men to guide them. So he doesn’t see these women as potential equals to him but is lesser than. Which is essential for the nice guy character. While he pretends to be better than Dave or Bud by being understanding and more rational. His rationale leads him down a similar path of thought like them, but he is not accepted by Dave and Bud because he is not as strong as them and doesn’t act upon his thoughts. As everyone has touched upon, the bathroom incident causes Lorimer to realize that he does not have a firm footing in the male sphere. This pushes him to seek to emulate “alpha male” behavior but also allows him to understand women. It seems to me that Lorimer was able to understand himself as a man by acknowledging that he is above women. This can be due to his ability to procreate with them, protect, or instill knowledge in them.
As a narrator, Lorimer seems to be very submissive, and beta like compared to his other two crew companions. We see this starting from the beginning of the story, when the crew is lost and start their conversation with the female crew members on their spacecraft. For example, as Lorimer starts to talk to the female crew members, Dave immediately stops him, “snapping” and saying “Hold it” (p. 588). This is also seen when Dave calls Lorimer in a condescending tone and uses words such as “goof”, “miss”, “Rip Van Winkle”, “fart”, and “ass” to call at him. While the other two crew members treat him like this and talk to Lorimer in the demeaning tone that they do, It is interesting that Lorimer seems to have all the answers to the troubles on the spaceship, such as when Bud asks Lorimer, “Was we in a black hole?” (p. 593).
It is also evident that Lorimer has had past experiences and memories that have in a way “scarred” him to the present of his story. This is evident when Lorimer feels envy of the relationship between Bud and Dave when he says, “The authentic ones, the alphas. Their bond. The awe he had felt first for the absurd jocks of his school ball team” (p. 596). When Lorimer is on board Gloria however, and when he sees the negative masculine traits that are expressed through Dave and Bud, it almost seems like he is falling more and more away of that “alpha” stigma. One, he sees the negative characteristics of Bud’s sexual desires towards women. When Bud is manipulated on the ship by the female crew members, Lorimer says to himself, “The spectacle is of merely clinical interest, he tells himself, nothing to dread” (p. 626). Through this quote of Bud, it almost seems as if knowing Bud’s negative desires, he almost doesn’t care about Bud anymore and what the female crew members do to him. Second, through Dave’s negative attitude towards women as seeing them “inferior”, Lorimer also sees the negative traits of the prejudices towards women. This is shown when Dave says, “They are lost children. They have forgotten he who made them” (628). Lorimer then defends the women on board with a thought in his head when he thinks, “They seem to be doing all right. It sounds rather foolish” (p. 628).
Lorimer is a stereotypical “nice guy” in his interactions with the female crew. He hopes that his differences between Bud and Davis (niceness, sensitivity, and understanding) will make him stand out as a less savage man and earn the sexual favors of the female crew. After enduring bullying and teasing that the other have already touched upon (bathroom incident), Lorimer is finally getting his turn to dominate the other men, ironically through his lack of masculinity. However, this same end goal of Lorimer’s shows he has internalized this flawed masculine structure, the very same one from which he suffers. One interesting blindspot of Lorimer’s in his courting of the women on board is how he underestimates how much they know about sexual desire and feels as a man he must warn and protect them from Bud’s sexual advances.
I like Erick’s question on how a world ruled by women would look like, but would posit that maybe it is sexual desire that is the “enemy” of a perfect society and therefore flaws would still remain (assuming homosexuality would become the norm in a female society). If we eliminate sexual desire entirely from humans, then could we achieve equality amongst the genders and a peaceful society? Or is sexual desire not the main root of this male aggression we see?
Lorimer differs from the other two characters in the story as he is more of an intellectual and more “nerdy” compared to the others. He is also less physically developed. Bud and Dave both have vastly different thoughts on how they would live in the new world. Dave believes men are superior and he can help lead a new society and show women how to live, and Bud has sexual fantasies about the women population and believes he can help them in his own way. Compared to these “alpha males”, Lorimer sees himself as a “beta” and wants to be more like them. He says that if he was a little taller and weighed a little more he would be just like Dave and Bud. Many times in his life Lorimer has been bullied for his personality and size and being more feminine. One example Lorimer describes about himself is when he played sports, they were the types that are not seen as manly such as bowling and volleyball. Eventually he realizes that the others’ arrogance will get them killed and he wants to live so he tries persuading them he is different. He realizes the women are fine by themselves which was the downfall of Bud and Dave. Lorimer ends up living the longest but the women deem he still poses a threat.
Like Erick, I find Lormier’s character to be the most extreme portrayal of a “beta male”. Tiptree (I’ll refer to the author as Tiptree, as that’s how she published) lays the backstory of Lormier getting bullied and put in his less-masculine place in childhood as a frame for how he operates throughout the story. He simultaneously awes at and detests the brooding, super-male characters of Bud and Dave, as the hate comes directly from his envy of their control and lack of fear when speaking in addition to their physical dominance over him (“a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier and I’d be just like them … an alpha” (585)). It’s a skewed representation of a sort of Stockholm Syndrome, where Lormier views those “alpha male” types in his life in an admiring light because of his trauma from them shoving him into a locker in his childhood. Tiptree is able to emphasize this through Lormier’s narration, as we can see into his overthinking, afraid, self-loathing inner monologue: “Now why couldn’t I have done that, Lormier asks himself for the thousandth time, following the familiar check sequence. Don’t answer. And for the thousandth time he is obscurely moved by the rightness in them. The authentic ones, the alphas. Their bond. The awe he had felt first for the absurd jocks of his school ball team” (596). Tiptree explodes this dynamic to the absolute extreme in the rape scene, emphasizing how this fuels the destructive, colonizing (anthropologically and sexually) nature of men. In fact, Tiptree separates these two evil qualities of society via the end characters of Bud – who represents sexual desire – and Dave – who represents blind colonization and dominance. This was an absolutely wild story, and I think that the way in which Tiptree sets up the characters and the narrative is so impressive for the reasons stated above!
How do you understand Lorimer as a narrator in “Houston, Houston, Do You Read?” How do his memories impact his view of the events he’s witnessing in the present of the story? What is one particular example of the way his earlier experiences color his view of his male crew members or the women on board the Gloria?
Lorimer as a narrator in “Houston, Houston, Do you Read?” is a beta male. What is interesting about his character is that he is in possession of the most knowledge in the all male crew as a physicist. However, to the crew this is all he is, interestingly, he is also the most rational, but, as a result, the most feminine in the crew. His memories of being a victim of bullying and constant ridiculing has led him to believe that he should try to emulate more masculine men. Thus, when they board the Gloria and realize what is happening he understands the reason why men would be a threat to the utopia created by the women. One particular example that sticks out to me is when the Gloria crew is telling the Sunbird crew where everything is and Lorimer is struck by the fact that the women believe that “everything is natural to share” (610). This is interesting because he then goes on to characterize this sharing to the interaction of ants. This dehumanizes the women’s sharing of everything. However, this is interesting because Lorimer suggests that the women have no self-respect, but as we learn later, their utopia is built on the idea of sharing everything. This means that the women share the responsibility of upholding their utopia. This becomes the reason why Lorimer accepts his death along with the other males. In large part because he understands man’s selfishness as was seen through Bud’s sexual fantasies, Davis positing that women are inferior through religion,and ultimately Lorimer’s thoughts that were a combination of two paired with the inability to be masculine.
I think that in both of Tipree Jr.’s work we come to see man as selfish and upholding patriarchy for no particular reason other than to subjugate women. In exploring both of these worlds it begs me to ask what would a world ruled by women look like? This is similar to how Harrison Bergeron begs its reader to ask how a world where equality has been achieved looks like.
I think Lorimer, much like Austin says is a nice guy. While he takes an interest in the women and gains an understanding of their society. Despite this, he still can’t stop Bud from sexually assaulting Judy or agreeing with Dave that the women need men to guide them. So he doesn’t see these women as potential equals to him but is lesser than. Which is essential for the nice guy character. While he pretends to be better than Dave or Bud by being understanding and more rational. His rationale leads him down a similar path of thought like them, but he is not accepted by Dave and Bud because he is not as strong as them and doesn’t act upon his thoughts. As everyone has touched upon, the bathroom incident causes Lorimer to realize that he does not have a firm footing in the male sphere. This pushes him to seek to emulate “alpha male” behavior but also allows him to understand women. It seems to me that Lorimer was able to understand himself as a man by acknowledging that he is above women. This can be due to his ability to procreate with them, protect, or instill knowledge in them.
As a narrator, Lorimer seems to be very submissive, and beta like compared to his other two crew companions. We see this starting from the beginning of the story, when the crew is lost and start their conversation with the female crew members on their spacecraft. For example, as Lorimer starts to talk to the female crew members, Dave immediately stops him, “snapping” and saying “Hold it” (p. 588). This is also seen when Dave calls Lorimer in a condescending tone and uses words such as “goof”, “miss”, “Rip Van Winkle”, “fart”, and “ass” to call at him. While the other two crew members treat him like this and talk to Lorimer in the demeaning tone that they do, It is interesting that Lorimer seems to have all the answers to the troubles on the spaceship, such as when Bud asks Lorimer, “Was we in a black hole?” (p. 593).
It is also evident that Lorimer has had past experiences and memories that have in a way “scarred” him to the present of his story. This is evident when Lorimer feels envy of the relationship between Bud and Dave when he says, “The authentic ones, the alphas. Their bond. The awe he had felt first for the absurd jocks of his school ball team” (p. 596). When Lorimer is on board Gloria however, and when he sees the negative masculine traits that are expressed through Dave and Bud, it almost seems like he is falling more and more away of that “alpha” stigma. One, he sees the negative characteristics of Bud’s sexual desires towards women. When Bud is manipulated on the ship by the female crew members, Lorimer says to himself, “The spectacle is of merely clinical interest, he tells himself, nothing to dread” (p. 626). Through this quote of Bud, it almost seems as if knowing Bud’s negative desires, he almost doesn’t care about Bud anymore and what the female crew members do to him. Second, through Dave’s negative attitude towards women as seeing them “inferior”, Lorimer also sees the negative traits of the prejudices towards women. This is shown when Dave says, “They are lost children. They have forgotten he who made them” (628). Lorimer then defends the women on board with a thought in his head when he thinks, “They seem to be doing all right. It sounds rather foolish” (p. 628).
Lorimer is a stereotypical “nice guy” in his interactions with the female crew. He hopes that his differences between Bud and Davis (niceness, sensitivity, and understanding) will make him stand out as a less savage man and earn the sexual favors of the female crew. After enduring bullying and teasing that the other have already touched upon (bathroom incident), Lorimer is finally getting his turn to dominate the other men, ironically through his lack of masculinity. However, this same end goal of Lorimer’s shows he has internalized this flawed masculine structure, the very same one from which he suffers. One interesting blindspot of Lorimer’s in his courting of the women on board is how he underestimates how much they know about sexual desire and feels as a man he must warn and protect them from Bud’s sexual advances.
I like Erick’s question on how a world ruled by women would look like, but would posit that maybe it is sexual desire that is the “enemy” of a perfect society and therefore flaws would still remain (assuming homosexuality would become the norm in a female society). If we eliminate sexual desire entirely from humans, then could we achieve equality amongst the genders and a peaceful society? Or is sexual desire not the main root of this male aggression we see?
Oh also, here’s a SNL video on “nice guys”
Lorimer differs from the other two characters in the story as he is more of an intellectual and more “nerdy” compared to the others. He is also less physically developed. Bud and Dave both have vastly different thoughts on how they would live in the new world. Dave believes men are superior and he can help lead a new society and show women how to live, and Bud has sexual fantasies about the women population and believes he can help them in his own way. Compared to these “alpha males”, Lorimer sees himself as a “beta” and wants to be more like them. He says that if he was a little taller and weighed a little more he would be just like Dave and Bud. Many times in his life Lorimer has been bullied for his personality and size and being more feminine. One example Lorimer describes about himself is when he played sports, they were the types that are not seen as manly such as bowling and volleyball. Eventually he realizes that the others’ arrogance will get them killed and he wants to live so he tries persuading them he is different. He realizes the women are fine by themselves which was the downfall of Bud and Dave. Lorimer ends up living the longest but the women deem he still poses a threat.
Like Erick, I find Lormier’s character to be the most extreme portrayal of a “beta male”. Tiptree (I’ll refer to the author as Tiptree, as that’s how she published) lays the backstory of Lormier getting bullied and put in his less-masculine place in childhood as a frame for how he operates throughout the story. He simultaneously awes at and detests the brooding, super-male characters of Bud and Dave, as the hate comes directly from his envy of their control and lack of fear when speaking in addition to their physical dominance over him (“a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier and I’d be just like them … an alpha” (585)). It’s a skewed representation of a sort of Stockholm Syndrome, where Lormier views those “alpha male” types in his life in an admiring light because of his trauma from them shoving him into a locker in his childhood. Tiptree is able to emphasize this through Lormier’s narration, as we can see into his overthinking, afraid, self-loathing inner monologue: “Now why couldn’t I have done that, Lormier asks himself for the thousandth time, following the familiar check sequence. Don’t answer. And for the thousandth time he is obscurely moved by the rightness in them. The authentic ones, the alphas. Their bond. The awe he had felt first for the absurd jocks of his school ball team” (596). Tiptree explodes this dynamic to the absolute extreme in the rape scene, emphasizing how this fuels the destructive, colonizing (anthropologically and sexually) nature of men. In fact, Tiptree separates these two evil qualities of society via the end characters of Bud – who represents sexual desire – and Dave – who represents blind colonization and dominance. This was an absolutely wild story, and I think that the way in which Tiptree sets up the characters and the narrative is so impressive for the reasons stated above!
How do you understand Lorimer as a narrator in “Houston, Houston, Do You Read?” How do his memories impact his view of the events he’s witnessing in the present of the story? What is one particular example of the way his earlier experiences color his view of his male crew members or the women on board the Gloria?
Lorimer as a narrator in “Houston, Houston, Do you Read?” is a beta male. What is interesting about his character is that he is in possession of the most knowledge in the all male crew as a physicist. However, to the crew this is all he is, interestingly, he is also the most rational, but, as a result, the most feminine in the crew. His memories of being a victim of bullying and constant ridiculing has led him to believe that he should try to emulate more masculine men. Thus, when they board the Gloria and realize what is happening he understands the reason why men would be a threat to the utopia created by the women. One particular example that sticks out to me is when the Gloria crew is telling the Sunbird crew where everything is and Lorimer is struck by the fact that the women believe that “everything is natural to share” (610). This is interesting because he then goes on to characterize this sharing to the interaction of ants. This dehumanizes the women’s sharing of everything. However, this is interesting because Lorimer suggests that the women have no self-respect, but as we learn later, their utopia is built on the idea of sharing everything. This means that the women share the responsibility of upholding their utopia. This becomes the reason why Lorimer accepts his death along with the other males. In large part because he understands man’s selfishness as was seen through Bud’s sexual fantasies, Davis positing that women are inferior through religion,and ultimately Lorimer’s thoughts that were a combination of two paired with the inability to be masculine.
I think that in both of Tipree Jr.’s work we come to see man as selfish and upholding patriarchy for no particular reason other than to subjugate women. In exploring both of these worlds it begs me to ask what would a world ruled by women look like? This is similar to how Harrison Bergeron begs its reader to ask how a world where equality has been achieved looks like.