One of my favorite things about reading Paradise Lost is Milton’s language. The beauty of his poem comes not only from his imaginative re-working of the bible, but also from his vocabulary and his ability to describe the same things over and over again using different descriptions. Because of the variety of his language, the places where he uses the same words over and over again stick out. One of these moments happens often when he talks about the snake. Over and over again, he writes “the serpent subtlest beast,” or talks about the snake’s “native subtlety,” or describes the snake’s “subtle wiles” (9.86,93,184). Milton’s fixation on this words shows his multi-layered understanding of the nature of evil. Often evil is represented as pure, in a way, as a great dark cloud looming over all that is good. But Milton’s evil is evil precisely because it is slippery, hard to pin down. Subtlety implies an understanding and control of the multiple meanings in the world, and I think it is a word that would have been important to Milton as an author reflecting on the ways he wanted people to read his multi-valent work. This is one of those moments where I almost want to argue that Milton is once again in Satan’s court. But I think there’s more to his construction of the snake as “subtle.” I’ll keep thinking about it…
I found myself very intrigued by Milton’s introduction to Book IX. Seeing as it contains the climax of the action, one would expect that Milton took extra care in crafting its prologue. He finds himself personally invested in the tale he relates, calling it a “sad task” (l. 13) and obligation that he “must change / Those notes to tragic” (l. 5-6). Once again, we are reminded how intimately our own lives as humans are tied to the action in the garden. Theologically, the fall of Adam and Eve is our fall, too, and still affects us today. Although he may be adopting epic convention in his narration, Milton is closer to his subject than almost any epic author save Dante.
What gave me pause was Milton’s use of the word “heroic” to describe the “argument” he aspires to put forth in this book (l. 13-14). He links it to “wrath” (l. 14) and offers a list of similes that seem to further obscure what he means by “heroic,” associating it with traditional heroes like Achilles as well as gods like Neptune or Juno. Later, he says that the only subject considered heroic in the past was “wars” (l. 28). Then, “arguments” were heroic because they recounted the words and deeds of heroic figures.
Yet now, he claims, “higher argument / Remains sufficient of itself to raise / That name” (l. 42-44). This assertion implies a monumental shift in the meaning of heroism. On one level, he elevates his genre, which distances itself from the knighthood and chivalry of prior centuries. But even further, we realize, the source of the heroism of Milton’s “argument” is not the characters of his story. Book IX is one that details downfall, not triumph; further, the only character that could be seems to be a “hero” in the entire epic is Satan, whose actions loosely place him within the epic conventions of one.
Instead, the poem draws its “heroic” nature from Milton and the “wrath” with which he pursues its execution. Just as the heroes of antiquity won glory through their physical actions, he purports to do the same through his intellectual pursuits. Such a claim is bold, but not unwarranted. If we readers should deem him successful in his task, Milton is completing no small feat: teaching us the origins of good and evil and showing us where our concupiscent human nature comes from. It would be hard to say that such an achievement is less than “heroic,” albeit in an untraditional way.
I agree with Abraham; Books I-VIII seemed to be preparing the reader for the Fall in Book IX. When Adam and Eve debate about whether they should go about their work individually or together, I am impressed with Eve’s reasoning. Adam and Eve know that they will be tempted, as Raphael warned, and Adam thinks that they should stick together to better combat the risk. However, Eve wants to go about her business alone because it will test her fortitude. Ultimately, Adam agrees to Eve’s request even though he knows better. This is one example of how Adam already has the propensity to blindly follow Eve. Later, it will be his downfall.
Eve on her own has never been a good thing. After her creation, she wanted to remain alone with her reflection, but she was led to Adam against her will. It is no surprise that Satan is able to tempt Eve. She has a weakness for pleasure, as demonstrated by her vanity looking at her reflection. Satan plays off of this and says he felt a need to find her so that he could worship her beauty. Satan temps Eve with the pleasure of knowledge, and she cant resist. Once she eats from the Tree of Knowledge, her first thought is to share the fruit with Adam. She has fallen, and she wants him to as well so that they can both be equals. Even though Adam knows he should not eat the fruit, the thought of not being with Eve is more than he can bare. He would follow her into sin even though God has explicitly told him not to.
Nice–this suggests in a way that Eve’s wish to work on her own is a reflection or revision of her original desire to stay with her reflection in the pool–and perhaps that Satan’s flattering words are just that kind of narcissistic reflection. V. interesting.
One line in all of Book IX stuck out to me as the most condemning of the human race. In Eve’s speech after her first taste of the apple, she begins to doubt her self and wonders about how she ought to explain what just happened to Adam. “But to Adam in what sort Shall I appear?” Eve says, “… so to add what wants In female sex, the more to draw his love, And render me more equal, and perhaps, A thing not undesirable, sometime Superior; for inferior who is free?” (IX.816-25). These last words could have been taken right out of Satan’s mouth. Knowledge seems synonymous with greed for power and superiority. The desire for power is what ultimately led to Satan’s fall, and the same emotion manifests itself here in Eve. It is also interesting to note how Eve later acts in much the same way as Satan did, convincing Adam to eat from the tree, as well. While one can debate the real reason that Adam decides to eat from the tree and how much guilt Eve bears, Milton writes, “he [Adam] scrupled not to eat Against his better knowledge, not deceiv’d, But fondly overcome with female charm” (997-9). In some capacity, Eve takes over as the temptress once she bites the apple, which goes to show how Satan has infiltrated her body and spirit. The Devil’s evil is now a part of her and will soon be part of the entire human race once Adam partakes.
Good–it is true that Eve not only behaves just as Satan has done but even borrows the logic (or illogic) of his arguments to do so. Her sense of her inferiority is a key issue, and seems to be there in a different even during their pre-lasparian argument.
Book 9 was definitely the most interesting book that have read. All the previous books in comparison appear to be preparing the reader for book 9. The narrator beings by saying “I know must change those notes to tragic: foul distrust and breach and disloyal on the part of Man, revolt and disobedience” (5-8). Openly the narrator recognizes the need to shift the tone of the of the poem. The purpose of Milton acknowledging the shift in tone is to prepare the audience for a tragic event, the fall paradise.
Milton puts an emphasis on physical detail when describing the serpent form Satan takes to trick Eve. “Circular base of rising folds that towered fold above fold, a surging maze.His head crested aloft and carbuncle his eyes with burnished neck of verdant gold erect amidst his circling spires that on the grass floated redundant. Pleasing was his shape and lovely” (498-594). Milton is describing Satan to be of a greenish color with a tint of gold, with red eyes, and a head that has folds that rise like spires. The green with a tint of gold may represent the envy that Satan transmits to Eve. The envy of power that God holds drives Eve to eat the apple. The red eyes may represent the fiery passion Satan harbors to cause the fall for mankind. Spires were found typically in gothic architecture. Spires generally in Christianity are related to pagan practice. The spires generally were related to a worship of phallic symbols. I found this relation appropriate since after Adam eats the forbidden fruit he engages in intercourse with Eve.
Satan refers to the forbidden fruit as “those fair apples” (585). There is no direct line in a Christian text that explicitly states the fruit were apples. Modern scholars have suggested the forbidden fruit to be an apple. What was Milton’s reasoning of choosing the forbidden fruit to be an apple?
Excellent on the visual imagery here–I agree that snake is designed to be a phallic and visually enticing object–and in fact the main gist of his message to Eve is “look on me…and do not believe.”
One of the things that is so interesting about the entire incident of the fall is how Adam knowingly follows Eve into sin. I think, to some extent, this challenges the notion that Eve is somehow predisposed in a way that Adam is not. Certainly she seems a more likely target for the devil to convince, but when it comes down to it, Adam falls just as easily. In fact, his sins appear to be worse than Eve’s. His decision to fall with her seems a passionate one, which incites the dramatic language, “me with thee hath ruined, for with thee / Certain my resolution is to die! / How can I live without thee” (Milton 9. 906-908). This seems to fall under the category of passion, which Raphael explicitly warned Adam about. While his sentiment is a good and loyal one, the manner in which it is presented is not in line with the logical thought that informs his love of God. Not only is Adam’s viewpoint a passionate one, it is also one that Milton associates with the language of despair. Milton describes Adam saying his resolution “as one from sad dismay” (Milton 9. 917). For someone in a direct line with God, it is surprising that Adam reaches dismay so easily. He should instead put his faith in God and trust that, with divine help, he and Eve can get out of the situation. Instead, he falls just like Eve, yet does so because of passion and despair, not a desire for knowledge and becoming god-like.
Good–we will definitely look at this. The fact that Adam “was not deceived” but took the apple anyway arguably intensifies the seriousness of his sin. You agree here with many critics who wonder why he does not turn to God first, rather than himself, to figure out what to do.
For me the most interesting part of Book Nine, which covers the seduction of Eve by the serpent Satan, is not the partaking of the apple itself but how Eve appears to feel about it following. She is not immediately aware of the colossal mistake she has made, or of the consequences it will have. For Eve, the first question is whether she should share this newfound “power” that she has found from the fruit with Adam, or whether she should keep it to herself. Her reasons for this are interesting. Eve is most excited that she might finally be worthy of her husband—equal to him. I believe this is the first time we hear from Eve herself that she is aware of her own inferiority to Adam. That Eve hopes the fruit will elevate her to her husband’s equal, perhaps his superior occasionally sheds new light on the dynamic of their relationship. She is not, it seems, as overjoyed with her marriage to Adam as her exultations claim (though whether this lack of contentedness has always existed or is brought on by the sin of eating the fruit is not clear).
The desire of Eve to find equality/superiority through the fruit also gives way to an interesting reflection on one of the central questions raised by the poem: whether Adam and Eve are truly free to decide their fates for themselves. Eve desires to be: “A thing desirable, sometime/Superior, for who inferior is free?” This brings up a kind of wrinkle in God’s “sufficient to have stood” claim about Adam and Eve. Eve presents the notion that even given free range of Eden, being inferior (she means to Adam, but it could also apply to the humans’ relationship with God) is in itself a kind of captivity. How can a subordinate, who answers to a higher authority, truly be free? Eve has the freedom to choose whether or not she eats the fruit, yes, but she lacks the freedom to be what she desires, since God’s authority restricts her means of achieving the equality and power she so craves. She can choose one inferior life or another — which in the scheme of things, doesn’t seem like much freedom at all.
Good–I’m also struck by the fact that Eve sees this as a way to equalize her relationship with Adam–though remember this is AFTER she has eaten. It doesn’t enter into her thinking beforehand. It is interesting to look at the way her logic/reasoning run before she decides to eat…
I completely agree with Kyra’s reading of Eve’s thoughts and actions from Book 9, but I was mostly focused on how Satan was changing. To me, this was easily the most enjoyable Book we’ve read so far, and really gives some variable angles from which to see Satan, as well as Adam and Eve. After finishing the Book, I can’t tell if my feelings about Satan have changed. On the one hand, he enters Paradise again under a very creepy and fundamentally evil pretext, taking the form of the Serpent and attempting to get Eve to kill herself. Yet, there’s something somber and even depressed about his mission here. He doesn’t hate Eve at all; he is tortured by “pleasure not for him ordain’d,” and it’s only made worse by Eve’s striking beauty (9.470). Again, is Milton garnering some sympathy for Satan here? In the moment, Satan is doing nothing but wallowing in his own self-pity. Satan also goes on more about how powerful Eve’s beauty is during this passage, more than he usually does. He goes so far as to call her “stupidly good” (9.465). Is this unquantifiable power Eve holds somehow tied in with her predestination? God made her a certain way so that Satan would think of her a certain way and feel the need to entice her to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, would be how that line of thinking goes. I’m not sure I’m ready to commit to either side, predestination to fall for Eve or not, quite yet. It’s also important to note that Eve brings up the idea of them separating herself; Adam wanted to stay together. Was this instinct built into her by God, favoring predestination, or does such a rash instinct suggest that she was not destined to fall? Overall, even though I feel no closer to answering questions posed in the beginning of the poem, this Book was a much easier read than many earlier ones.
Interesting on Satan–in fact it is he who is momentarily “stupidly good”–ie. forgetful of his mission because of Eve’s beauty and innocence–he is still vulnerable to their (and her) power. I do agree that Eve’s decision to separate herself from Adam is a key element here–we’ll get to that in class!
The recurring question of whether or not Eve was predestined to fall obviously arises again in Book 9. Right after Satan’s last speech to convince her to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge, the narrator asserts, “his words replete with guile/Into her heart too easy entrance won.” (9.733-734) The claim that Eve was too easily convinced seems to imply that fundamentally she was not strong enough to combat the serpent’s flattery and temptation and therefore Eve was not inherently created “sufficient to stand.” However, in this book, we arguably get the most insight into Eve; she’s given a lot more of a voice in Book 9 then ever before. We see her using solid logic, such as, “How dies the serpent? He hath eat’n and lives/And knows, and speaks, and reasons and discerns,/Irrational till then.” (9.764-767) She is articulating her awareness that God in a literal sense perhaps deceived Adam and Eve when He claimed that they would die if they were to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, and thus demonstrating an ability to tease out the inconsistency in God’s logic. We also see glimpses of a more feminist Eve in some sense; in her post-fall soliloquy she hopes to maybe assert herself as more equal or superior to Adam with her newly acquire knowledge: “And render me more equal and, perhaps./A thing not undesirable sometime/Superior: for inferior who is free?” (9.823-825) This contrasts to previous books where she blatantly removes herself from important conversation with messengers from Heaven because she preferred to get all of her information directly from Adam, which would perpetually establish him as superior to her in his proximity to God and therefore knowledge (pre-fall). I am curious to see how post-fall Eve is different from her pre-fall self and wonder if these arguably feminist claims to power mean that Milton associates that with Eve’s newly acquired knowledge of evil.
Good–in fact I think it is the logic chopping that Eve gets into as a result of Satan’s conversation with her that is the beginning of the end–the idea that she can reason her way into the prohibition.
What I find most interesting about Book 8 is that it outlines the separation between what Adam (and Eve) needs to know and what he does not need to know. Adam asks how the heavens work, and Raphael tells him that he does not need to know that. Yet, at the same time he also makes reference to the idea that the solar system is heliocentric, an idea proposed by Galileo. We know that Milton knew Galileo, and in Book 1 compares himself to Galileo’s telescope. Yet, in Book 8 Raphael asserts that the movements of the heavenly bodies are not important to Adam, and that he should concern himself with his life on Earth. Milton seems to respect Galileo and be interested in his ideas, yet he denies the importance of Galileo’s research and theories.
To Raphael, it is most important that Adam should know the danger of temptation and lust. He warns Adam against loving Eve in an unholy way, as well as against disobeying God by doing that “which else free will/ Would not admit!” (8.635-6). Essentially, he warns Adam against using his free will. I find it interesting that Adam is happy until he uses his free will. In addition, I find it worth noting, not only that Eve wanders off, but that no one tells her to stay. No one thinks that she needs to hear these dire warnings, and so they allow her to remain ignorant. In a way, Eve’s ignorance and resulting vulnerability to temptation is partly the fault of both Adam and Raphael for underestimating her importance to the fate of Paradise.
Good–several important ideas here. Milton is clearly aware of the heliocentric v. geocentric debate, but glosses over it as less important than Adam’s daily moral conduct..too much knowledge seems problematic even when not overtly sinful. Eve’s absence is problematic–we will discuss that today!
In Book 8, Adam’s story of his creation furthers the idea of gendered discourse and the split between the male and female realms. The contrast between Adam and Eve’s creation stories paints subtle but important differences between the sexes. For example, Adam is born in the “beams of the sun,” immediately turning “toward heaven his wond’ring eyes” in search of the divine. Eve, on the other hand, first awakens “under a shade on flowers,” and first witnesses her reflection. The allusion to Narcissus seems calculated on Milton’s part, and compared with Adam’s first actions, might suggest a link between women and vanity. In addition, the language itself shows a distinction between man and woman; Adam’s first action is to “spring up,” stand “upright on his feet,” thus moving his head closer to God and the heavens. Eve’s first action is to “bend down” toward the earth, enthralled by her own face. Why? I think Milton may be suggesting that women tend to be fascinated with illusions, images, and “shadows”- essentially, the earthly world- while man tends toward reason, enlightenment and knowledge- the heavenly world. In addition, it seems significant that Adam immediately knows the names of the animals, and thus is not deceived by appearances or by the threats of the unknown, whereas Eve struggles with “unexperienced thought” upon her creation, not knowing who she is or what she is looking at. All of this, in my opinion, contributes to an idea we have discussed before: that Milton’s female realm is strictly ethereal, elusive and rooted in a dream-like state, whereas the male world dominates with full knowledge and direct access to God. It will be interesting to see how this theme of gendered discourse and the contrast between the sexes continues to play out in the remaining books.
Excellent. I agree that these origin stories seem designed to speak directly to one another, and to illustrate Adam’s orientation towards God and the heavens and Eve’s orientation towards the ground and images/illusions/shadows. Given your association between Eve and the dreamworld it is especially interesting to note that her creation almost assimilates her to a dream–“awaked to find her/Or forever to deplore her loss.”
Throughout the poem we have discussed the gender hierarchy quite a bit and in book 8 it continues to be a topic of thought. It is pretty clear throughout the poem that Eve is secondary to Adam, this is due to biblical reasons (the fact that Adam was born first and then Eve was born out of Adam) and is now made clear in social contexts as well. In book 7 Raphael speaks to Adam about the threat of Satan, even though it is Eve that Satan is trying to get through. And in book 8 we see Eve back down from the conversation with Raphael and Adam, by walking away and letting them converse alone, in hopes that Adam will tell her after. Why is it that Raphael tells Adam who then is supposed to pass the message along? Is it because he is the man? Is it about gender or something else? It also seems as though Eve might prefer to hear the conversation from Adam himself, why does she feel more comfortable with that?
Towards the end of book 8 we also hear Raphael describe Eve, a description that ends up depicting Eve as completely inferior to Adam. Once Adam admits that in Eve’s presence and in front of her beauty she “seems wisest, viruousest, discreetest, best,” (550) Raphael makes it clear that Eve’s spiritually is not as strong, her intellect is less developed and her vanity is over the top and harmful to her because of it. In addition, he makes it clear that although Eve is beautiful she is absolutely inferior to him in everything else and warns him to stay away from being influenced by her beauty. He says, “Not sunk in carnal pleasure, for which cause among the beasts no mate for thee was found.” (593-594) This seems to be a direct reflection on Milton’s idea of inequality amongst the genders. Milton is the one illustrating Eve in this poem and he depicts her as an easily controlled woman who likes to be submissive to men.
What I find to be difficult in this book/situation is how to draw the line between what is biblical and what is Milton’s imagination. Is the bible depicting Eve as the inferior one and the lesser gender or is this more of Milton’s doing? In addition, is it fair that Milton is in a sense re-writing the bible in his own way and changing the perception of some of the characters?
Good. Remember that we looked at the two accounts of the creation in Genesis last time. In one of them (the P source) men and women seem created equal–male and female created he them–and in the J source Eve is secondary, created from Adam’s rib. Genesis does not, however, comment at such length on the moral inferiority of eve.
In many instances in Book VIII of Paradise Lost, I found myself rethinking my understanding of Adam. Milton offers a more profound insight into Adam’s character and emotions during the final stages of Adam’s conversation with Raphael. I have come to view Adam as significantly closer to heaven than Eve (or any subsequent human being), and he comes to occupy a role as translator between heaven and earth in the way that he conveys the knowledge from heaven to Eve.
In the beginning of Book VIII, eve chooses not to listen to the discourse of Adam and Raphael and instead “Her husband the relater she preferred / Before the angel” (52-3). She knows Adam has the intellectual capacity to interpret the words from heaven—to “solve high dispute” (55)—and translate this information to Eve in an understandable manner, “With conjugal caresses, from his lip / Not words alone pleased her” (56-7). Milton portrays Eve as a figure who indulges herself in physical and emotional pleasures equally or more than the divine knowledge being passed to her. The fact that Eve requires Adam’s translation elevates his character above hers.
Contrasts between Adam and his wife continue when his birth story, told to Raphael, is filled with “upward” language. He says: “Straight toward heav’n my wond’ring eyes I turned” (257), and he also uses the words “raised”, “up”, and “upright in the following lines. If we compare this moment of awakening to that of Eve, her story is explicitly filled with downward imagery, for the first place she looks is down into the pool at her own reflection. This juxtaposition is Milton’s obvious attempt to have the reader see Adam in a more heavenly light than Eve.
Adam clearly operates as a translator, but because he lacks the knowledge that God and heaven possesses, he in not immune to earthly actions and desires. Though he understands Eve is spiritually less pure than himself, he cannot help but idolatrize her outward perfection, saying: “All higher knowledge in her presence falls / Degraded” (551-2). God places Adam in a difficult position as a translator because he must balance the influences of two separate worlds, and because of his limited knowledge and no previous experience, I understand why he is susceptible to sin. For me, Book VIII clarifies the “perfect yet not immutable” paradox that we’ve discussed.
Excellent points. Yes, I think the origin stories in particular point to Milton’s attempt to differentiate Adam and Eve–especially the fact that Adam’s gaze is consistently oriented upwards towards the heavens. Notice too, though, and we will look at this today, that Adam actively misreads Eve’s behaviour when she first appears…
Something I took note of near the end of Book Eight was God’s creation of Eve from Adam’s rib, in particular the actual removal of the rib. God, who is described by Adam as “the Shape”, is “stooping” when he opens Adam’s side (463, 465). This reminded me of the scene in Book Four, when Satan is “squat like a toad close at the ear of Eve” (Book 4, l. 800). Again, we have this sort of creature, this “Shape”, this time leaning over Adam while he’s sleeping and dreaming, creating (God “formed and fashioned” while Satan “forges”, 469) what Adam most wants and desires.
What does this imply, that the two scenes are so similar? Perhaps it shows each of their true desires in turn, which through sleeping they can truly access. We see that Adam desires a mate, but Eve desires fruit, knowledge, and power. However, we see that in sleeping, both are easily manipulated by more powerful forces. While Adam’s desires are reflected in Eve, who is created out of the “sweetness of [Adam’s] heart” (475), we are not sure where Eve’s desires come from. Is this parallel scene supposed to imply that Eve’s desires are also true and from her heart, or should it imply that, because her desires are created by Satan, they are not hers at all?
This is very interesting. In assimilating Eve to a dream, Milton seems to imply even more strongly that she comes from the desirous part of Adam’s mind…there is also the similarity between the creation of Eve and the creation of Sin, too, to keep in mind.
April 30, 2015 at 9:23 am
One of my favorite things about reading Paradise Lost is Milton’s language. The beauty of his poem comes not only from his imaginative re-working of the bible, but also from his vocabulary and his ability to describe the same things over and over again using different descriptions. Because of the variety of his language, the places where he uses the same words over and over again stick out. One of these moments happens often when he talks about the snake. Over and over again, he writes “the serpent subtlest beast,” or talks about the snake’s “native subtlety,” or describes the snake’s “subtle wiles” (9.86,93,184). Milton’s fixation on this words shows his multi-layered understanding of the nature of evil. Often evil is represented as pure, in a way, as a great dark cloud looming over all that is good. But Milton’s evil is evil precisely because it is slippery, hard to pin down. Subtlety implies an understanding and control of the multiple meanings in the world, and I think it is a word that would have been important to Milton as an author reflecting on the ways he wanted people to read his multi-valent work. This is one of those moments where I almost want to argue that Milton is once again in Satan’s court. But I think there’s more to his construction of the snake as “subtle.” I’ll keep thinking about it…
April 30, 2015 at 8:44 am
I found myself very intrigued by Milton’s introduction to Book IX. Seeing as it contains the climax of the action, one would expect that Milton took extra care in crafting its prologue. He finds himself personally invested in the tale he relates, calling it a “sad task” (l. 13) and obligation that he “must change / Those notes to tragic” (l. 5-6). Once again, we are reminded how intimately our own lives as humans are tied to the action in the garden. Theologically, the fall of Adam and Eve is our fall, too, and still affects us today. Although he may be adopting epic convention in his narration, Milton is closer to his subject than almost any epic author save Dante.
What gave me pause was Milton’s use of the word “heroic” to describe the “argument” he aspires to put forth in this book (l. 13-14). He links it to “wrath” (l. 14) and offers a list of similes that seem to further obscure what he means by “heroic,” associating it with traditional heroes like Achilles as well as gods like Neptune or Juno. Later, he says that the only subject considered heroic in the past was “wars” (l. 28). Then, “arguments” were heroic because they recounted the words and deeds of heroic figures.
Yet now, he claims, “higher argument / Remains sufficient of itself to raise / That name” (l. 42-44). This assertion implies a monumental shift in the meaning of heroism. On one level, he elevates his genre, which distances itself from the knighthood and chivalry of prior centuries. But even further, we realize, the source of the heroism of Milton’s “argument” is not the characters of his story. Book IX is one that details downfall, not triumph; further, the only character that could be seems to be a “hero” in the entire epic is Satan, whose actions loosely place him within the epic conventions of one.
Instead, the poem draws its “heroic” nature from Milton and the “wrath” with which he pursues its execution. Just as the heroes of antiquity won glory through their physical actions, he purports to do the same through his intellectual pursuits. Such a claim is bold, but not unwarranted. If we readers should deem him successful in his task, Milton is completing no small feat: teaching us the origins of good and evil and showing us where our concupiscent human nature comes from. It would be hard to say that such an achievement is less than “heroic,” albeit in an untraditional way.
April 29, 2015 at 11:38 pm
I agree with Abraham; Books I-VIII seemed to be preparing the reader for the Fall in Book IX. When Adam and Eve debate about whether they should go about their work individually or together, I am impressed with Eve’s reasoning. Adam and Eve know that they will be tempted, as Raphael warned, and Adam thinks that they should stick together to better combat the risk. However, Eve wants to go about her business alone because it will test her fortitude. Ultimately, Adam agrees to Eve’s request even though he knows better. This is one example of how Adam already has the propensity to blindly follow Eve. Later, it will be his downfall.
Eve on her own has never been a good thing. After her creation, she wanted to remain alone with her reflection, but she was led to Adam against her will. It is no surprise that Satan is able to tempt Eve. She has a weakness for pleasure, as demonstrated by her vanity looking at her reflection. Satan plays off of this and says he felt a need to find her so that he could worship her beauty. Satan temps Eve with the pleasure of knowledge, and she cant resist. Once she eats from the Tree of Knowledge, her first thought is to share the fruit with Adam. She has fallen, and she wants him to as well so that they can both be equals. Even though Adam knows he should not eat the fruit, the thought of not being with Eve is more than he can bare. He would follow her into sin even though God has explicitly told him not to.
April 30, 2015 at 8:48 am
Nice–this suggests in a way that Eve’s wish to work on her own is a reflection or revision of her original desire to stay with her reflection in the pool–and perhaps that Satan’s flattering words are just that kind of narcissistic reflection. V. interesting.
April 29, 2015 at 9:48 pm
One line in all of Book IX stuck out to me as the most condemning of the human race. In Eve’s speech after her first taste of the apple, she begins to doubt her self and wonders about how she ought to explain what just happened to Adam. “But to Adam in what sort Shall I appear?” Eve says, “… so to add what wants In female sex, the more to draw his love, And render me more equal, and perhaps, A thing not undesirable, sometime Superior; for inferior who is free?” (IX.816-25). These last words could have been taken right out of Satan’s mouth. Knowledge seems synonymous with greed for power and superiority. The desire for power is what ultimately led to Satan’s fall, and the same emotion manifests itself here in Eve. It is also interesting to note how Eve later acts in much the same way as Satan did, convincing Adam to eat from the tree, as well. While one can debate the real reason that Adam decides to eat from the tree and how much guilt Eve bears, Milton writes, “he [Adam] scrupled not to eat Against his better knowledge, not deceiv’d, But fondly overcome with female charm” (997-9). In some capacity, Eve takes over as the temptress once she bites the apple, which goes to show how Satan has infiltrated her body and spirit. The Devil’s evil is now a part of her and will soon be part of the entire human race once Adam partakes.
April 30, 2015 at 8:47 am
Good–it is true that Eve not only behaves just as Satan has done but even borrows the logic (or illogic) of his arguments to do so. Her sense of her inferiority is a key issue, and seems to be there in a different even during their pre-lasparian argument.
April 29, 2015 at 9:09 pm
Book 9 was definitely the most interesting book that have read. All the previous books in comparison appear to be preparing the reader for book 9. The narrator beings by saying “I know must change those notes to tragic: foul distrust and breach and disloyal on the part of Man, revolt and disobedience” (5-8). Openly the narrator recognizes the need to shift the tone of the of the poem. The purpose of Milton acknowledging the shift in tone is to prepare the audience for a tragic event, the fall paradise.
Milton puts an emphasis on physical detail when describing the serpent form Satan takes to trick Eve. “Circular base of rising folds that towered fold above fold, a surging maze.His head crested aloft and carbuncle his eyes with burnished neck of verdant gold erect amidst his circling spires that on the grass floated redundant. Pleasing was his shape and lovely” (498-594). Milton is describing Satan to be of a greenish color with a tint of gold, with red eyes, and a head that has folds that rise like spires. The green with a tint of gold may represent the envy that Satan transmits to Eve. The envy of power that God holds drives Eve to eat the apple. The red eyes may represent the fiery passion Satan harbors to cause the fall for mankind. Spires were found typically in gothic architecture. Spires generally in Christianity are related to pagan practice. The spires generally were related to a worship of phallic symbols. I found this relation appropriate since after Adam eats the forbidden fruit he engages in intercourse with Eve.
Satan refers to the forbidden fruit as “those fair apples” (585). There is no direct line in a Christian text that explicitly states the fruit were apples. Modern scholars have suggested the forbidden fruit to be an apple. What was Milton’s reasoning of choosing the forbidden fruit to be an apple?
April 30, 2015 at 8:46 am
Excellent on the visual imagery here–I agree that snake is designed to be a phallic and visually enticing object–and in fact the main gist of his message to Eve is “look on me…and do not believe.”
April 29, 2015 at 8:46 pm
One of the things that is so interesting about the entire incident of the fall is how Adam knowingly follows Eve into sin. I think, to some extent, this challenges the notion that Eve is somehow predisposed in a way that Adam is not. Certainly she seems a more likely target for the devil to convince, but when it comes down to it, Adam falls just as easily. In fact, his sins appear to be worse than Eve’s. His decision to fall with her seems a passionate one, which incites the dramatic language, “me with thee hath ruined, for with thee / Certain my resolution is to die! / How can I live without thee” (Milton 9. 906-908). This seems to fall under the category of passion, which Raphael explicitly warned Adam about. While his sentiment is a good and loyal one, the manner in which it is presented is not in line with the logical thought that informs his love of God. Not only is Adam’s viewpoint a passionate one, it is also one that Milton associates with the language of despair. Milton describes Adam saying his resolution “as one from sad dismay” (Milton 9. 917). For someone in a direct line with God, it is surprising that Adam reaches dismay so easily. He should instead put his faith in God and trust that, with divine help, he and Eve can get out of the situation. Instead, he falls just like Eve, yet does so because of passion and despair, not a desire for knowledge and becoming god-like.
April 30, 2015 at 8:45 am
Good–we will definitely look at this. The fact that Adam “was not deceived” but took the apple anyway arguably intensifies the seriousness of his sin. You agree here with many critics who wonder why he does not turn to God first, rather than himself, to figure out what to do.
April 29, 2015 at 7:54 pm
For me the most interesting part of Book Nine, which covers the seduction of Eve by the serpent Satan, is not the partaking of the apple itself but how Eve appears to feel about it following. She is not immediately aware of the colossal mistake she has made, or of the consequences it will have. For Eve, the first question is whether she should share this newfound “power” that she has found from the fruit with Adam, or whether she should keep it to herself. Her reasons for this are interesting. Eve is most excited that she might finally be worthy of her husband—equal to him. I believe this is the first time we hear from Eve herself that she is aware of her own inferiority to Adam. That Eve hopes the fruit will elevate her to her husband’s equal, perhaps his superior occasionally sheds new light on the dynamic of their relationship. She is not, it seems, as overjoyed with her marriage to Adam as her exultations claim (though whether this lack of contentedness has always existed or is brought on by the sin of eating the fruit is not clear).
The desire of Eve to find equality/superiority through the fruit also gives way to an interesting reflection on one of the central questions raised by the poem: whether Adam and Eve are truly free to decide their fates for themselves. Eve desires to be: “A thing desirable, sometime/Superior, for who inferior is free?” This brings up a kind of wrinkle in God’s “sufficient to have stood” claim about Adam and Eve. Eve presents the notion that even given free range of Eden, being inferior (she means to Adam, but it could also apply to the humans’ relationship with God) is in itself a kind of captivity. How can a subordinate, who answers to a higher authority, truly be free? Eve has the freedom to choose whether or not she eats the fruit, yes, but she lacks the freedom to be what she desires, since God’s authority restricts her means of achieving the equality and power she so craves. She can choose one inferior life or another — which in the scheme of things, doesn’t seem like much freedom at all.
April 30, 2015 at 8:41 am
Good–I’m also struck by the fact that Eve sees this as a way to equalize her relationship with Adam–though remember this is AFTER she has eaten. It doesn’t enter into her thinking beforehand. It is interesting to look at the way her logic/reasoning run before she decides to eat…
April 29, 2015 at 12:36 pm
I completely agree with Kyra’s reading of Eve’s thoughts and actions from Book 9, but I was mostly focused on how Satan was changing. To me, this was easily the most enjoyable Book we’ve read so far, and really gives some variable angles from which to see Satan, as well as Adam and Eve. After finishing the Book, I can’t tell if my feelings about Satan have changed. On the one hand, he enters Paradise again under a very creepy and fundamentally evil pretext, taking the form of the Serpent and attempting to get Eve to kill herself. Yet, there’s something somber and even depressed about his mission here. He doesn’t hate Eve at all; he is tortured by “pleasure not for him ordain’d,” and it’s only made worse by Eve’s striking beauty (9.470). Again, is Milton garnering some sympathy for Satan here? In the moment, Satan is doing nothing but wallowing in his own self-pity. Satan also goes on more about how powerful Eve’s beauty is during this passage, more than he usually does. He goes so far as to call her “stupidly good” (9.465). Is this unquantifiable power Eve holds somehow tied in with her predestination? God made her a certain way so that Satan would think of her a certain way and feel the need to entice her to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, would be how that line of thinking goes. I’m not sure I’m ready to commit to either side, predestination to fall for Eve or not, quite yet. It’s also important to note that Eve brings up the idea of them separating herself; Adam wanted to stay together. Was this instinct built into her by God, favoring predestination, or does such a rash instinct suggest that she was not destined to fall? Overall, even though I feel no closer to answering questions posed in the beginning of the poem, this Book was a much easier read than many earlier ones.
April 30, 2015 at 8:40 am
Interesting on Satan–in fact it is he who is momentarily “stupidly good”–ie. forgetful of his mission because of Eve’s beauty and innocence–he is still vulnerable to their (and her) power. I do agree that Eve’s decision to separate herself from Adam is a key element here–we’ll get to that in class!
April 28, 2015 at 6:18 pm
The recurring question of whether or not Eve was predestined to fall obviously arises again in Book 9. Right after Satan’s last speech to convince her to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge, the narrator asserts, “his words replete with guile/Into her heart too easy entrance won.” (9.733-734) The claim that Eve was too easily convinced seems to imply that fundamentally she was not strong enough to combat the serpent’s flattery and temptation and therefore Eve was not inherently created “sufficient to stand.” However, in this book, we arguably get the most insight into Eve; she’s given a lot more of a voice in Book 9 then ever before. We see her using solid logic, such as, “How dies the serpent? He hath eat’n and lives/And knows, and speaks, and reasons and discerns,/Irrational till then.” (9.764-767) She is articulating her awareness that God in a literal sense perhaps deceived Adam and Eve when He claimed that they would die if they were to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, and thus demonstrating an ability to tease out the inconsistency in God’s logic. We also see glimpses of a more feminist Eve in some sense; in her post-fall soliloquy she hopes to maybe assert herself as more equal or superior to Adam with her newly acquire knowledge: “And render me more equal and, perhaps./A thing not undesirable sometime/Superior: for inferior who is free?” (9.823-825) This contrasts to previous books where she blatantly removes herself from important conversation with messengers from Heaven because she preferred to get all of her information directly from Adam, which would perpetually establish him as superior to her in his proximity to God and therefore knowledge (pre-fall). I am curious to see how post-fall Eve is different from her pre-fall self and wonder if these arguably feminist claims to power mean that Milton associates that with Eve’s newly acquired knowledge of evil.
April 30, 2015 at 8:38 am
Good–in fact I think it is the logic chopping that Eve gets into as a result of Satan’s conversation with her that is the beginning of the end–the idea that she can reason her way into the prohibition.
April 28, 2015 at 12:19 am
What I find most interesting about Book 8 is that it outlines the separation between what Adam (and Eve) needs to know and what he does not need to know. Adam asks how the heavens work, and Raphael tells him that he does not need to know that. Yet, at the same time he also makes reference to the idea that the solar system is heliocentric, an idea proposed by Galileo. We know that Milton knew Galileo, and in Book 1 compares himself to Galileo’s telescope. Yet, in Book 8 Raphael asserts that the movements of the heavenly bodies are not important to Adam, and that he should concern himself with his life on Earth. Milton seems to respect Galileo and be interested in his ideas, yet he denies the importance of Galileo’s research and theories.
To Raphael, it is most important that Adam should know the danger of temptation and lust. He warns Adam against loving Eve in an unholy way, as well as against disobeying God by doing that “which else free will/ Would not admit!” (8.635-6). Essentially, he warns Adam against using his free will. I find it interesting that Adam is happy until he uses his free will. In addition, I find it worth noting, not only that Eve wanders off, but that no one tells her to stay. No one thinks that she needs to hear these dire warnings, and so they allow her to remain ignorant. In a way, Eve’s ignorance and resulting vulnerability to temptation is partly the fault of both Adam and Raphael for underestimating her importance to the fate of Paradise.
April 28, 2015 at 8:23 am
Good–several important ideas here. Milton is clearly aware of the heliocentric v. geocentric debate, but glosses over it as less important than Adam’s daily moral conduct..too much knowledge seems problematic even when not overtly sinful. Eve’s absence is problematic–we will discuss that today!
April 27, 2015 at 11:47 pm
In Book 8, Adam’s story of his creation furthers the idea of gendered discourse and the split between the male and female realms. The contrast between Adam and Eve’s creation stories paints subtle but important differences between the sexes. For example, Adam is born in the “beams of the sun,” immediately turning “toward heaven his wond’ring eyes” in search of the divine. Eve, on the other hand, first awakens “under a shade on flowers,” and first witnesses her reflection. The allusion to Narcissus seems calculated on Milton’s part, and compared with Adam’s first actions, might suggest a link between women and vanity. In addition, the language itself shows a distinction between man and woman; Adam’s first action is to “spring up,” stand “upright on his feet,” thus moving his head closer to God and the heavens. Eve’s first action is to “bend down” toward the earth, enthralled by her own face. Why? I think Milton may be suggesting that women tend to be fascinated with illusions, images, and “shadows”- essentially, the earthly world- while man tends toward reason, enlightenment and knowledge- the heavenly world. In addition, it seems significant that Adam immediately knows the names of the animals, and thus is not deceived by appearances or by the threats of the unknown, whereas Eve struggles with “unexperienced thought” upon her creation, not knowing who she is or what she is looking at. All of this, in my opinion, contributes to an idea we have discussed before: that Milton’s female realm is strictly ethereal, elusive and rooted in a dream-like state, whereas the male world dominates with full knowledge and direct access to God. It will be interesting to see how this theme of gendered discourse and the contrast between the sexes continues to play out in the remaining books.
April 28, 2015 at 8:22 am
Excellent. I agree that these origin stories seem designed to speak directly to one another, and to illustrate Adam’s orientation towards God and the heavens and Eve’s orientation towards the ground and images/illusions/shadows. Given your association between Eve and the dreamworld it is especially interesting to note that her creation almost assimilates her to a dream–“awaked to find her/Or forever to deplore her loss.”
April 27, 2015 at 7:47 pm
Throughout the poem we have discussed the gender hierarchy quite a bit and in book 8 it continues to be a topic of thought. It is pretty clear throughout the poem that Eve is secondary to Adam, this is due to biblical reasons (the fact that Adam was born first and then Eve was born out of Adam) and is now made clear in social contexts as well. In book 7 Raphael speaks to Adam about the threat of Satan, even though it is Eve that Satan is trying to get through. And in book 8 we see Eve back down from the conversation with Raphael and Adam, by walking away and letting them converse alone, in hopes that Adam will tell her after. Why is it that Raphael tells Adam who then is supposed to pass the message along? Is it because he is the man? Is it about gender or something else? It also seems as though Eve might prefer to hear the conversation from Adam himself, why does she feel more comfortable with that?
Towards the end of book 8 we also hear Raphael describe Eve, a description that ends up depicting Eve as completely inferior to Adam. Once Adam admits that in Eve’s presence and in front of her beauty she “seems wisest, viruousest, discreetest, best,” (550) Raphael makes it clear that Eve’s spiritually is not as strong, her intellect is less developed and her vanity is over the top and harmful to her because of it. In addition, he makes it clear that although Eve is beautiful she is absolutely inferior to him in everything else and warns him to stay away from being influenced by her beauty. He says, “Not sunk in carnal pleasure, for which cause among the beasts no mate for thee was found.” (593-594) This seems to be a direct reflection on Milton’s idea of inequality amongst the genders. Milton is the one illustrating Eve in this poem and he depicts her as an easily controlled woman who likes to be submissive to men.
What I find to be difficult in this book/situation is how to draw the line between what is biblical and what is Milton’s imagination. Is the bible depicting Eve as the inferior one and the lesser gender or is this more of Milton’s doing? In addition, is it fair that Milton is in a sense re-writing the bible in his own way and changing the perception of some of the characters?
April 28, 2015 at 8:20 am
Good. Remember that we looked at the two accounts of the creation in Genesis last time. In one of them (the P source) men and women seem created equal–male and female created he them–and in the J source Eve is secondary, created from Adam’s rib. Genesis does not, however, comment at such length on the moral inferiority of eve.
April 27, 2015 at 7:12 pm
In many instances in Book VIII of Paradise Lost, I found myself rethinking my understanding of Adam. Milton offers a more profound insight into Adam’s character and emotions during the final stages of Adam’s conversation with Raphael. I have come to view Adam as significantly closer to heaven than Eve (or any subsequent human being), and he comes to occupy a role as translator between heaven and earth in the way that he conveys the knowledge from heaven to Eve.
In the beginning of Book VIII, eve chooses not to listen to the discourse of Adam and Raphael and instead “Her husband the relater she preferred / Before the angel” (52-3). She knows Adam has the intellectual capacity to interpret the words from heaven—to “solve high dispute” (55)—and translate this information to Eve in an understandable manner, “With conjugal caresses, from his lip / Not words alone pleased her” (56-7). Milton portrays Eve as a figure who indulges herself in physical and emotional pleasures equally or more than the divine knowledge being passed to her. The fact that Eve requires Adam’s translation elevates his character above hers.
Contrasts between Adam and his wife continue when his birth story, told to Raphael, is filled with “upward” language. He says: “Straight toward heav’n my wond’ring eyes I turned” (257), and he also uses the words “raised”, “up”, and “upright in the following lines. If we compare this moment of awakening to that of Eve, her story is explicitly filled with downward imagery, for the first place she looks is down into the pool at her own reflection. This juxtaposition is Milton’s obvious attempt to have the reader see Adam in a more heavenly light than Eve.
Adam clearly operates as a translator, but because he lacks the knowledge that God and heaven possesses, he in not immune to earthly actions and desires. Though he understands Eve is spiritually less pure than himself, he cannot help but idolatrize her outward perfection, saying: “All higher knowledge in her presence falls / Degraded” (551-2). God places Adam in a difficult position as a translator because he must balance the influences of two separate worlds, and because of his limited knowledge and no previous experience, I understand why he is susceptible to sin. For me, Book VIII clarifies the “perfect yet not immutable” paradox that we’ve discussed.
April 28, 2015 at 8:18 am
Excellent points. Yes, I think the origin stories in particular point to Milton’s attempt to differentiate Adam and Eve–especially the fact that Adam’s gaze is consistently oriented upwards towards the heavens. Notice too, though, and we will look at this today, that Adam actively misreads Eve’s behaviour when she first appears…
April 27, 2015 at 4:59 pm
Something I took note of near the end of Book Eight was God’s creation of Eve from Adam’s rib, in particular the actual removal of the rib. God, who is described by Adam as “the Shape”, is “stooping” when he opens Adam’s side (463, 465). This reminded me of the scene in Book Four, when Satan is “squat like a toad close at the ear of Eve” (Book 4, l. 800). Again, we have this sort of creature, this “Shape”, this time leaning over Adam while he’s sleeping and dreaming, creating (God “formed and fashioned” while Satan “forges”, 469) what Adam most wants and desires.
What does this imply, that the two scenes are so similar? Perhaps it shows each of their true desires in turn, which through sleeping they can truly access. We see that Adam desires a mate, but Eve desires fruit, knowledge, and power. However, we see that in sleeping, both are easily manipulated by more powerful forces. While Adam’s desires are reflected in Eve, who is created out of the “sweetness of [Adam’s] heart” (475), we are not sure where Eve’s desires come from. Is this parallel scene supposed to imply that Eve’s desires are also true and from her heart, or should it imply that, because her desires are created by Satan, they are not hers at all?
April 28, 2015 at 8:16 am
This is very interesting. In assimilating Eve to a dream, Milton seems to imply even more strongly that she comes from the desirous part of Adam’s mind…there is also the similarity between the creation of Eve and the creation of Sin, too, to keep in mind.